"You mentioned that he’s 'employed and earning a good salary,' which suggests that his demand avoidance is selective, as it does not appear to be hindering him at work." OOOF. I hope I remember this like I remember the observation that people with bad tempers somehow manage to control it when doing so would put them at risk, vs letting them be the one endangering others.
Thank you so very much for naming Dialectical Behavior Therapy and including the Four Solution Analysis. That is one of the most helpful mental exercises that I have ever come across to implement real change in behavior. This installment alone is well worth the subscription price and I look forward to learning more insightful tidbits from you.
Aww, thanks Sharyn! You have the distinction of being the first person who ever pledged a paid subscription for Other Interests, for which I will always be grateful. ❤️
Great response. I thought this was an excellent consideration of the options. I think it is worth mentioning that when you feel chronically ill you can feel stuck but it is amazing what can happen when you’re honest about your situation with your community and a few well organised friends can jump in and assist with finding a temporary other space- at least to think things over.
I get where you're coming from and feel a strong irritation toward this man for not being there when she needs him. I guess my comment here is on the financial side of things.
She is saying he works and has a good salary, and that she is unable to work because of her illness. Yet she's managing a household with 4 children under 10. That sounds a lot harder to than a full time job to me. And honestly, incompatible with work, which is why I'm not accusing her of sloth here, but just wonder how a separation would work out for her financially.
Do you find that when marriages like this end, the woman is happier even if she is much poorer?
I think it really varies depending on the individual's circumstances. I would not have the means to leave if I was not able to work and had four children, but this question-writer was already considering leaving, so she might have the means to do so.
Did you read Anne Helen Petersen's essay from a couple of years ago about the fear of blue divorce? She talks about how millennials witnessed a lot of divorced women who were worse off financially after divorce and how that deters us from ending bad marriages.
What I have observed among friends and clients who have gotten divorced is that their fear that they would be destitute post-divorce did not play out, and that often the time and energy that is freed by not caregiving for a manchild allows women to earn more money. My friend who got divorced two years ago was delighted the first year she filed taxes alone to discover that she earned almost as much by herself as the two of them had earned together. (She's a professor and started teaching more classes, something her husband never wanted her to do because he wanted her to devote more time to him.) I do think there is a lot of fearmongering around divorce that women will end up broke and lonely if they leave, but the data doesn't seem to support that narrative. Women generally are happier when they leave a bad relationship.
I tried to offer an option for self-preservation for this reader in case leaving is not a viable option.
The guy in this vignette. The "radical acceptance" option doesn't seem totally out of the question to me, especially when considering the financial contributions he's making. In my friend's case, he is the one seeking divorce even though she doesn't want it, partially for financial reasons--she has always been a stay at home mom to many children and hasn't worked more than very part time for 20 years. However I do sense she would be happier not having to deal with him and care for his needs too. I just assume she will be a lot poorer in the end :(
This is the detail that makes me think radical acceptance is not in this questioner's best interest: "If I keep over-doing it, the condition will probably get worse and I could wind up house- or bed-bound in a few years." This man is literally running her into the ground, which is pretty fucked up, IMO.
Your friend's situation sounds so hard. I would encourage her to fight to get every last penny of spousal support that she is owed for all those unpaid years of caregiving work. Women risk so much when they become full-time caregivers. Still, there are precedents of women who were happier post-divorce and figured it out financially. I'm thinking of an interview AHP did earlier this year with a former trad wife who wrote a memoir about leaving her marriage. I'm forgetting the name of both the book and the author right now. This is why Zawn Villines is adamant about encouraging women to stay in the work force, so they can maintain independence and not be dependent on a man.
"Yet she's managing a household with 4 children under 10. That sounds a lot harder to than a full time job to me." <-- this. My spouse's dad always worked full-time; his mother stayed at home with the three kids born over the course of six years until they were in school, then she herself worked in education ... and, yep, was handling cooking and extracurriculars for the kids. And yeah, dad's job was never just eight hours a day, and I do believe he himself worked hard, but as I told my spouse, at the end of his workday ... it was the end of his workday. Not so for her. (We were discussing my comment that if being a dad, as the role is socially defined in the US, was possible for me to do, he and I would have had kids after all. But being a mom, the way we expect moms to be in the US? Not right for me.)
I took time off when my kids were little and being a full-time mom is by far the hardest job I've ever had. It's not like doing paid work let's moms off the hook, though. Now I run a business AND still do all the mom tasks.
I was also wishing the response would have addressed the financial side of things more. Hopefully she can get disability benefits or substantial alimony, but disability benefits are notoriously hard to get for a lot of invisible chronic illnesses, and probably wouldn't be enough to support four kids. Alimony is probably the best bet, but if they divorce and her husband truly can't keep his life together without her and loses his job, what then? Suggesting that the letter writer leave without focusing on the practical aspects seems short-sighted, although I hope she's able to find a way.
This is true of disability benefits in the US, but I'm under the impression that the UK, where this question writer lives, has a more robust social safety net? She refers to him as her "partner" so it's unclear if they are married. Many women in her position would not have the means to leave. This questioner specified that she was considering either "sucking it up" or leaving, which implies that leaving is an option for her, even if it wouldn't be an option for many others in her circumstances.
As far as the risk that he will lose his job if she ceases overfunctioning for him--doubtful. There are so many men who are perfectly competent at work but who weaponize incompetence at home, which I suspect is what's happening here.
That could be. When she said, "I've looked at every possible avenue for additional external support from friends and family to the NHS," that makes me think she doesn't have disability benefits, but it's hard to say for sure. It's also pretty obvious that she's not emotionally fulfilled by the relationship, so I assumed there must be some practical barriers like money, but maybe she's just worried about how her kids would be affected by a separation/divorce.
I think I might be able to offer a helpful perspective to the person who wrote the question, since I am in a life situation that’s similar in a lot of ways: chronic illness that causes extreme fatigue and brain fog, neurodivergent husband with executive function issues, and a young child. I got sick about 4 years ago and haven’t been able to work since then either.
Our situation isn’t perfect: it’s hard on both of us that I am financially dependent on my husband, and it’s taken a lot of (still ongoing) negotiations between us to establish a routine where all the essential care tasks get done. The line between “this is an executive functioning issue” and “this is learned helplessness that is the luxury of people socialized as men” is blurry. But we have reached a meaningful level of equity in terms of household labor distribution, and he has been an active participant in making sure that I’m not overstretching my capacity. He takes care of me when I need care, and he takes care of the essential household tasks that I can’t. Some things, we’ve had to figure out how to discuss them or how to make them accessible for him, but I am not and could not do that alone. If your spouse isn’t doing this work, he’s not being a real partner to you.
These stories make me realize how important boundaries are in relationships. He has a 20 year history of her handling everything for him so why would he change at this point? The likelihood of him stepping up seems extraordinarily unlikely to me so I hope that she sets boundaries and doesn’t keep over functioning if she stays.
As a guy, I don't think I have much to add to this discussion. I had been guilty of some of his behavior until my wife got sick.
Sometimes we take too long to learn obvious lessons. The most frustrating lesson was that nobody believed my wife when she kept saying, "Something's wrong." It took me a while to recognize that her words were truly bewilderment that she couldn't be the *wife person* in the relationship. I finally embraced more responsibility and we tried to get her medical help but she was met with so much resistance even from her Primary Care Physician that we had to insist on tests and referrals.
Nearly far too late she was diagnosed with serious heart disease and years later with Alzheimer's.
I admit my failings. We need to break the cultural training our mother's tried to instill in us about what a "wife" does and what the "husband" does. Oddly enough, our Dads were better examples for us but we got too lazy to pay attention.
"You mentioned that he’s 'employed and earning a good salary,' which suggests that his demand avoidance is selective, as it does not appear to be hindering him at work." OOOF. I hope I remember this like I remember the observation that people with bad tempers somehow manage to control it when doing so would put them at risk, vs letting them be the one endangering others.
Thank you so very much for naming Dialectical Behavior Therapy and including the Four Solution Analysis. That is one of the most helpful mental exercises that I have ever come across to implement real change in behavior. This installment alone is well worth the subscription price and I look forward to learning more insightful tidbits from you.
Aww, thanks Sharyn! You have the distinction of being the first person who ever pledged a paid subscription for Other Interests, for which I will always be grateful. ❤️
Wow, knowing this really made my day!
It really made my day when I got your pledge! I stared at my computer screen with this face 🥹 murmuring "thank you" to the empty air. ❤️
Great response. I thought this was an excellent consideration of the options. I think it is worth mentioning that when you feel chronically ill you can feel stuck but it is amazing what can happen when you’re honest about your situation with your community and a few well organised friends can jump in and assist with finding a temporary other space- at least to think things over.
Omg that last line 💣
I get where you're coming from and feel a strong irritation toward this man for not being there when she needs him. I guess my comment here is on the financial side of things.
She is saying he works and has a good salary, and that she is unable to work because of her illness. Yet she's managing a household with 4 children under 10. That sounds a lot harder to than a full time job to me. And honestly, incompatible with work, which is why I'm not accusing her of sloth here, but just wonder how a separation would work out for her financially.
Do you find that when marriages like this end, the woman is happier even if she is much poorer?
I think it really varies depending on the individual's circumstances. I would not have the means to leave if I was not able to work and had four children, but this question-writer was already considering leaving, so she might have the means to do so.
Did you read Anne Helen Petersen's essay from a couple of years ago about the fear of blue divorce? She talks about how millennials witnessed a lot of divorced women who were worse off financially after divorce and how that deters us from ending bad marriages.
What I have observed among friends and clients who have gotten divorced is that their fear that they would be destitute post-divorce did not play out, and that often the time and energy that is freed by not caregiving for a manchild allows women to earn more money. My friend who got divorced two years ago was delighted the first year she filed taxes alone to discover that she earned almost as much by herself as the two of them had earned together. (She's a professor and started teaching more classes, something her husband never wanted her to do because he wanted her to devote more time to him.) I do think there is a lot of fearmongering around divorce that women will end up broke and lonely if they leave, but the data doesn't seem to support that narrative. Women generally are happier when they leave a bad relationship.
I tried to offer an option for self-preservation for this reader in case leaving is not a viable option.
Comforting to hear, as I have someone close to me who is in a similar situation. Just, on the outset, this person does not seem like such a bad guy.
This person, as in, the writer's partner? Or your friend's husband?
The guy in this vignette. The "radical acceptance" option doesn't seem totally out of the question to me, especially when considering the financial contributions he's making. In my friend's case, he is the one seeking divorce even though she doesn't want it, partially for financial reasons--she has always been a stay at home mom to many children and hasn't worked more than very part time for 20 years. However I do sense she would be happier not having to deal with him and care for his needs too. I just assume she will be a lot poorer in the end :(
This is the detail that makes me think radical acceptance is not in this questioner's best interest: "If I keep over-doing it, the condition will probably get worse and I could wind up house- or bed-bound in a few years." This man is literally running her into the ground, which is pretty fucked up, IMO.
Your friend's situation sounds so hard. I would encourage her to fight to get every last penny of spousal support that she is owed for all those unpaid years of caregiving work. Women risk so much when they become full-time caregivers. Still, there are precedents of women who were happier post-divorce and figured it out financially. I'm thinking of an interview AHP did earlier this year with a former trad wife who wrote a memoir about leaving her marriage. I'm forgetting the name of both the book and the author right now. This is why Zawn Villines is adamant about encouraging women to stay in the work force, so they can maintain independence and not be dependent on a man.
"Yet she's managing a household with 4 children under 10. That sounds a lot harder to than a full time job to me." <-- this. My spouse's dad always worked full-time; his mother stayed at home with the three kids born over the course of six years until they were in school, then she herself worked in education ... and, yep, was handling cooking and extracurriculars for the kids. And yeah, dad's job was never just eight hours a day, and I do believe he himself worked hard, but as I told my spouse, at the end of his workday ... it was the end of his workday. Not so for her. (We were discussing my comment that if being a dad, as the role is socially defined in the US, was possible for me to do, he and I would have had kids after all. But being a mom, the way we expect moms to be in the US? Not right for me.)
I took time off when my kids were little and being a full-time mom is by far the hardest job I've ever had. It's not like doing paid work let's moms off the hook, though. Now I run a business AND still do all the mom tasks.
I was also wishing the response would have addressed the financial side of things more. Hopefully she can get disability benefits or substantial alimony, but disability benefits are notoriously hard to get for a lot of invisible chronic illnesses, and probably wouldn't be enough to support four kids. Alimony is probably the best bet, but if they divorce and her husband truly can't keep his life together without her and loses his job, what then? Suggesting that the letter writer leave without focusing on the practical aspects seems short-sighted, although I hope she's able to find a way.
This is true of disability benefits in the US, but I'm under the impression that the UK, where this question writer lives, has a more robust social safety net? She refers to him as her "partner" so it's unclear if they are married. Many women in her position would not have the means to leave. This questioner specified that she was considering either "sucking it up" or leaving, which implies that leaving is an option for her, even if it wouldn't be an option for many others in her circumstances.
As far as the risk that he will lose his job if she ceases overfunctioning for him--doubtful. There are so many men who are perfectly competent at work but who weaponize incompetence at home, which I suspect is what's happening here.
That could be. When she said, "I've looked at every possible avenue for additional external support from friends and family to the NHS," that makes me think she doesn't have disability benefits, but it's hard to say for sure. It's also pretty obvious that she's not emotionally fulfilled by the relationship, so I assumed there must be some practical barriers like money, but maybe she's just worried about how her kids would be affected by a separation/divorce.
Such a good response.
Thanks Denise 😊
I think I might be able to offer a helpful perspective to the person who wrote the question, since I am in a life situation that’s similar in a lot of ways: chronic illness that causes extreme fatigue and brain fog, neurodivergent husband with executive function issues, and a young child. I got sick about 4 years ago and haven’t been able to work since then either.
Our situation isn’t perfect: it’s hard on both of us that I am financially dependent on my husband, and it’s taken a lot of (still ongoing) negotiations between us to establish a routine where all the essential care tasks get done. The line between “this is an executive functioning issue” and “this is learned helplessness that is the luxury of people socialized as men” is blurry. But we have reached a meaningful level of equity in terms of household labor distribution, and he has been an active participant in making sure that I’m not overstretching my capacity. He takes care of me when I need care, and he takes care of the essential household tasks that I can’t. Some things, we’ve had to figure out how to discuss them or how to make them accessible for him, but I am not and could not do that alone. If your spouse isn’t doing this work, he’s not being a real partner to you.
These stories make me realize how important boundaries are in relationships. He has a 20 year history of her handling everything for him so why would he change at this point? The likelihood of him stepping up seems extraordinarily unlikely to me so I hope that she sets boundaries and doesn’t keep over functioning if she stays.
As a guy, I don't think I have much to add to this discussion. I had been guilty of some of his behavior until my wife got sick.
Sometimes we take too long to learn obvious lessons. The most frustrating lesson was that nobody believed my wife when she kept saying, "Something's wrong." It took me a while to recognize that her words were truly bewilderment that she couldn't be the *wife person* in the relationship. I finally embraced more responsibility and we tried to get her medical help but she was met with so much resistance even from her Primary Care Physician that we had to insist on tests and referrals.
Nearly far too late she was diagnosed with serious heart disease and years later with Alzheimer's.
I admit my failings. We need to break the cultural training our mother's tried to instill in us about what a "wife" does and what the "husband" does. Oddly enough, our Dads were better examples for us but we got too lazy to pay attention.